The wall
- Thread starter Alanm
- Start date
And you're so sweet to call my attention to this ... wow ... you really care for my well-being, huh?
Actually, both my wife & I have a Christmas savings account; its just that the tax return comes at the right time of the year. We usually take a week of family vacation right after the ******* get out of school, so we have grown accustom to relying on the tax refund. We were thinking Orlando & Disney World this year. We went in 2010 and that's where the ******* wanted to go once more. Both want to take a friend, however ... we're still working through that. Last time we had a room for them & a room for us ... now they're teenagers, so we need to make other arrangements.
But back to the issue, the Trump tax cut helped mostly the corporations & wealthiest, and it did NOT pay for itself. Corporations got a major permanent tax cut, but with a third of US corporate profits flowing to foreign nationals, the GDP didn't get the entire benefit of the corporate tax cut, thus American workers didn't likely benefit from it either. And since 84% of stock are held by the wealthiest 10%, a majority of workers benefited nothing from stock values.
That said, already, the budget deficit is expected to hit right at a trillion for the year, and is 17% higher than last years deficit. And, although Trump sold the tax cut as a "middle class tax cut" he knew damn well it wasn't going to benefit mostly the middleclass. Why else would he suggest giving "just the middleclass" another 10% tax cut later this year? For one, he won't do that, and second, if he did, it would definitely include more tax cuts for the wealthiest. Spending this year is projected at $4.4 trillion and revenue at $3.4 trillion ... and this from a man who said he'd pay OFF the national debt in 10 years. At least Obama was shrinking the deficit during his terms in office.
You have a President that doesn't listen to his own party in Congress over freezing government over a frik'n wall, and still declares a National Emergency .... and he takes the word of an adversary (MrPutin) over his own intelligence advisors. The man is a frik'n nut case. He's running up unnecessary debt that the tax payers will have to address decades from now, and Republicans make n o effort to reel him in.
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Actually Trump left for his golf club the same afternoon after declaring his non-emergency, national emergency that very morning; it was on the TV news. As far as Obama's national emergencies, how many of them were congressionally approved? All Of Them. Was Trump's? Nope! Trump doesn't take anyone's word for anything other than Fox News and the conservative talk shows like Limbaugh & Hannity.
He's just like YOU ... a frkin' FOOL!
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How dense can you be??? Yes Trump left the same day he signed the national emergency. He then played golf the next day....which is what I said. You really need to work on reading comprehension. Obummer waited a whopping two days for his golf round, but he damn sure didn't wait even a day to do his Democrap fundraising. He did that THE SAME DAY.
how many of Obummer's were "congressionally approved"??? exactly none. They are a unilateral exercise of power by the President using authority granted to the executive by the National Emergencies Act of 1976. You should review US title 50 U.S.C. § 1601–1651....or continue demonstrating your ignorance.
Randilicous
Couple
^ Truth, A multilayered approach like this would be best. Problem is from the Republican side, it seems the "ruling class" doesn't really Want A solution, they want cheap labor, people to exploit. From the Democrat side many love illegals because, once able most are going to vote Democrat, and they are wanting that demographic shift. If politicans were serious about fixing the problems, they would combine all of the above with A political solution. Guest worker programs that could be monitored against, for example, paying less than minimum wage and horrible/dangerous working conditions. Other countries have used this approach. Don't really believe they want to fix this. Just continue the exploitation. Ending the failing war on ******* would also help, our whole approach has been wrong and has decimated entire regions that have given sway to ******* lords and massive corruption down south. Americans consume 70% of the illegal ******* used on the planet. I believe we have A responsibility to help unfuck what we helped to cause.
Easygliderpro
Male
Wow... I love your videos, that I watched them all. Thank you
Actually your post demonstrates your ignorance of the meaning of the word ignorance.
It is also yet another fine example of how when faced with inarguable facts, many liberals on here try to find some inconsequential side topic to whine about.
Jackmeoff
Male
Ibid.
Randilicous
Couple
The Tl;DR crowd should just skip this post by...
I would hope that we all are serious about border security. Any sovereign nation has an obligation to protect it's borders. Especially with the expanded social programs many on the left are hoping to implement in our country, unrestricted access to all will make those programs potentially unviable imo. I've stated we have an obligation to help with the issues we have caused to our southern neighbors with our insatiable appetite for illegal *******. Again, Americans use 70% of the illegal ******* on the Planet, in addition the activities of our government in destabilizing Governments in Central and South America have also contributed to the problem, most of those campaigns have been hidden by our clandestine services so the general public has no knowledge of them.
I spent quite A bit of time backpacking through these regions in my youth, wouldn't do it now, too sketchy and that was 20 yrs ago. I can remember getting off A bus at A station in Nicaragua. Was amazed at what I saw. Literally from one horizon to the next were people living in filth. Literally no education, no prospects, no hope. Human misery in every direction. As I stood taking it all in, like an apparition, A smoking hot latina trailed by, in A red dress. She slowed as she passed me by, staring at me but I was so overwhelmed by what I was witnessing that I didn't register her hungry look until I had A chance to reflect on it later. In retrospect I'm sure she lived in one of the, literally hundreds of cardboard boxes that dotted the slightly sloping hillside in the valley we were in, possibly looking for A gringo like me to get her out of there. She haunts my dreams, to this day.
I remember also the graffiti on the walls as we entered Managua, then labeled, as I found out later, the most "Wicked City in the Western Hemisphere". One stuck out. It mentioned the contras, I believe it was "vive contra" which would be A remnant of Reagans policies, my Spanish was weak and I was A little overwrought at the time however. The buses I rode in looked to be former school buses, small place to sit, people crammed together, and yes, chickens. As we entered the city of Managua we passed A school. It looked run down but it caught my eye. One young kid, maybe 12 was walking down the steps. He caught my gaze, recognized I was American, or at least white, and raised his hand in a fist. What he was trying to communicate I don't know to this day, solidarity or defiance?
As I have said border security matters, even Caesar Chavez, the latino farm labor organizer recognized this. I've read that he would lead caravans to the border where him and his followers would attack camps harboring illegal workers from across the border. He knew the effect that low cost labor would have on his efforts for A living wage. He has A holiday named after him in the U.S. now. Even Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer were, at one point, in favor of border security and President Obama spoke out about it as well. We should all be on the same page here.
With prohibition of alcohol the lesson was learned quickly. Four years of policy, that saw our cities descend into mob violence, summary executions and the breakdown in law and order in our cities was enough, we quickly ended it. Note that these negatives mostly affected white people, possibly A reason they were reversed so quickly.
If we were serious about fixing the issues with illegal immigration then A multifaceted approach would be best imo. First off full legalization of recreational marijuana. I do NOT believe modern marijuana is harmless. It's been modified so much from it's original form that it's potency is several times higher than what could be found in nature, it's been linked increasingly to mental issues in heavy users, still it's effects are less negative, to society in general, than alcohol imo. Full recreational legalization would, however, do much to cut the revenue of the cartels, but it's only A first step.
The next step should be full decriminalization of ALL *******. Stop locking up addicts as criminals and start treating the problem as the health issue it is and not the criminal one it is not. I've never used hard *******, addictive personality here, I know my weak points and knew I would be hopeless if I did.
Right now as I type this paramilitaries funded by our government are trekking through the jungles of Central and South America on Search and destroy missions. Their weapons, uniforms, pay and even the food in their packs are funded by our government in A program that is costing us hundreds of millions of dollars. This is just one example of course, of the money being pissed away. Sidenote: I actually met one of these patrols on my travels. Sitting in A camp they had setup. I was A little apprehensive of their galil rifles but they were friendly enough. They were eating their evening meal. My Spanish at the time was bad, it's much worse now. Still my pidgen Spanish was enough to trade A can of Skoal with one of them for A couple MREs. I took the package apart and filled the reactive bag with water, then placed the food inside, they were all staring at me at this point and as I pulled my, now hot food out of the bag, I notice them staring at me, I heard one mutter "Los Gringos" and I realized no one had ever showed them that MREs can be heated with water, they had been eating them cold this whole time!
Want to make A huge dent in illegal immigration? Take the money out of the myriad law enforcement programs, around the world, from Afghanistan, the Caribbean and the Americas. Cut the feet out from under the Cartels that can buy local officials throughout the world. Use the money for treatment, and jobs programs. Follow the lead of Portugal, where the government did just that. In addition to treatment they also guarantee A former addict A job upon release, telling employers that they will pay HALF of A former addicts pay for the first year of employment, good incentive. Not to mention the Billions of dollars leaving our country due to them being transferred into the hands of criminals. Big pharma can take up the slack and would also provide jobs here.
We have an Opioids problem in this country right now, we have had one before. In Vietnam nearly 30% of our troops used *******, again A fact most don't know. There was much hand wringing at the time that we would have A bunch of junkies coming home to be A problem on our streets. You know what happened? Nearly ALL came home and just dropped the ******* entirely! Once they came home, into the supportive environment of "most" of their families, they just didn't need it anymore. That realization has shook up much of what the establishment has espoused concerning ******* addiction. Give addicts A reason to live, integrate them back into society, don't treat them like pariahs
Back to border security. On some borders walls work. This solution alone will Not work on our Southern border. Politically how much of that border will run through, for example, tribal lands. Anyone familiar with the fights native Americans have put up over pipelines should be aware of this. Native Americans alone will be able to keep this issue tied up in courts for potentially decades, not to mention the environmental activists and their cases, which they are sure to press.
A border with A system of sensors has been suggested earlier in this thread. I agree with that. In addition I believe we should have physical barriers near populated areas. With these it will give whatever quick reaction ******* we have locally time to react before anyone jumps the fence and disappears into the local populace. In areas where there are no people the system of sensors in addition to regular overflights of drones can take up the slack. The DHS has 12 predator drones, they operate them at A cost of 250 million dollars A year. That's total cost including cost of maintenance and salaries. The estimated cost of A border wall is 30 billion dollars, the annual cost of maintaining that border wall is 250 million dollars. The 5 billion most are floating around is for proof of concept, not actual construction. So for 250m we can, in addition to the sensors etc already in place, have A drone fleet on constant patrol. I don't suggest we use those drones to actually Shoot at illegals, just vector ground personnel towards their position to be interned and their individual cases evaluated. If they are eligible for asylum we leave it up to the courts. However If, for example, they are members of the Mexican military infiltrating with A ******* caravan, and I have seen the vids from ranchers on the border of Mexican military running ******* across the border ( unconfirmed but I HAVE seen what looks like Mexican army running ******* into the States) we dont let armed foreign troops tresspass into our nation, now we have the option of flicking some AGM-114s their way and tuning them up proper!
I'm not some "Murica bad" ethnomasochist here either. Am actually right of center on many issues. Our actions down south in the past decades have caused many of our problems. Let's try A different approach.
I would hope that we all are serious about border security. Any sovereign nation has an obligation to protect it's borders. Especially with the expanded social programs many on the left are hoping to implement in our country, unrestricted access to all will make those programs potentially unviable imo. I've stated we have an obligation to help with the issues we have caused to our southern neighbors with our insatiable appetite for illegal *******. Again, Americans use 70% of the illegal ******* on the Planet, in addition the activities of our government in destabilizing Governments in Central and South America have also contributed to the problem, most of those campaigns have been hidden by our clandestine services so the general public has no knowledge of them.
I spent quite A bit of time backpacking through these regions in my youth, wouldn't do it now, too sketchy and that was 20 yrs ago. I can remember getting off A bus at A station in Nicaragua. Was amazed at what I saw. Literally from one horizon to the next were people living in filth. Literally no education, no prospects, no hope. Human misery in every direction. As I stood taking it all in, like an apparition, A smoking hot latina trailed by, in A red dress. She slowed as she passed me by, staring at me but I was so overwhelmed by what I was witnessing that I didn't register her hungry look until I had A chance to reflect on it later. In retrospect I'm sure she lived in one of the, literally hundreds of cardboard boxes that dotted the slightly sloping hillside in the valley we were in, possibly looking for A gringo like me to get her out of there. She haunts my dreams, to this day.
I remember also the graffiti on the walls as we entered Managua, then labeled, as I found out later, the most "Wicked City in the Western Hemisphere". One stuck out. It mentioned the contras, I believe it was "vive contra" which would be A remnant of Reagans policies, my Spanish was weak and I was A little overwrought at the time however. The buses I rode in looked to be former school buses, small place to sit, people crammed together, and yes, chickens. As we entered the city of Managua we passed A school. It looked run down but it caught my eye. One young kid, maybe 12 was walking down the steps. He caught my gaze, recognized I was American, or at least white, and raised his hand in a fist. What he was trying to communicate I don't know to this day, solidarity or defiance?
As I have said border security matters, even Caesar Chavez, the latino farm labor organizer recognized this. I've read that he would lead caravans to the border where him and his followers would attack camps harboring illegal workers from across the border. He knew the effect that low cost labor would have on his efforts for A living wage. He has A holiday named after him in the U.S. now. Even Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer were, at one point, in favor of border security and President Obama spoke out about it as well. We should all be on the same page here.
With prohibition of alcohol the lesson was learned quickly. Four years of policy, that saw our cities descend into mob violence, summary executions and the breakdown in law and order in our cities was enough, we quickly ended it. Note that these negatives mostly affected white people, possibly A reason they were reversed so quickly.
If we were serious about fixing the issues with illegal immigration then A multifaceted approach would be best imo. First off full legalization of recreational marijuana. I do NOT believe modern marijuana is harmless. It's been modified so much from it's original form that it's potency is several times higher than what could be found in nature, it's been linked increasingly to mental issues in heavy users, still it's effects are less negative, to society in general, than alcohol imo. Full recreational legalization would, however, do much to cut the revenue of the cartels, but it's only A first step.
The next step should be full decriminalization of ALL *******. Stop locking up addicts as criminals and start treating the problem as the health issue it is and not the criminal one it is not. I've never used hard *******, addictive personality here, I know my weak points and knew I would be hopeless if I did.
Right now as I type this paramilitaries funded by our government are trekking through the jungles of Central and South America on Search and destroy missions. Their weapons, uniforms, pay and even the food in their packs are funded by our government in A program that is costing us hundreds of millions of dollars. This is just one example of course, of the money being pissed away. Sidenote: I actually met one of these patrols on my travels. Sitting in A camp they had setup. I was A little apprehensive of their galil rifles but they were friendly enough. They were eating their evening meal. My Spanish at the time was bad, it's much worse now. Still my pidgen Spanish was enough to trade A can of Skoal with one of them for A couple MREs. I took the package apart and filled the reactive bag with water, then placed the food inside, they were all staring at me at this point and as I pulled my, now hot food out of the bag, I notice them staring at me, I heard one mutter "Los Gringos" and I realized no one had ever showed them that MREs can be heated with water, they had been eating them cold this whole time!
Want to make A huge dent in illegal immigration? Take the money out of the myriad law enforcement programs, around the world, from Afghanistan, the Caribbean and the Americas. Cut the feet out from under the Cartels that can buy local officials throughout the world. Use the money for treatment, and jobs programs. Follow the lead of Portugal, where the government did just that. In addition to treatment they also guarantee A former addict A job upon release, telling employers that they will pay HALF of A former addicts pay for the first year of employment, good incentive. Not to mention the Billions of dollars leaving our country due to them being transferred into the hands of criminals. Big pharma can take up the slack and would also provide jobs here.
We have an Opioids problem in this country right now, we have had one before. In Vietnam nearly 30% of our troops used *******, again A fact most don't know. There was much hand wringing at the time that we would have A bunch of junkies coming home to be A problem on our streets. You know what happened? Nearly ALL came home and just dropped the ******* entirely! Once they came home, into the supportive environment of "most" of their families, they just didn't need it anymore. That realization has shook up much of what the establishment has espoused concerning ******* addiction. Give addicts A reason to live, integrate them back into society, don't treat them like pariahs
Back to border security. On some borders walls work. This solution alone will Not work on our Southern border. Politically how much of that border will run through, for example, tribal lands. Anyone familiar with the fights native Americans have put up over pipelines should be aware of this. Native Americans alone will be able to keep this issue tied up in courts for potentially decades, not to mention the environmental activists and their cases, which they are sure to press.
A border with A system of sensors has been suggested earlier in this thread. I agree with that. In addition I believe we should have physical barriers near populated areas. With these it will give whatever quick reaction ******* we have locally time to react before anyone jumps the fence and disappears into the local populace. In areas where there are no people the system of sensors in addition to regular overflights of drones can take up the slack. The DHS has 12 predator drones, they operate them at A cost of 250 million dollars A year. That's total cost including cost of maintenance and salaries. The estimated cost of A border wall is 30 billion dollars, the annual cost of maintaining that border wall is 250 million dollars. The 5 billion most are floating around is for proof of concept, not actual construction. So for 250m we can, in addition to the sensors etc already in place, have A drone fleet on constant patrol. I don't suggest we use those drones to actually Shoot at illegals, just vector ground personnel towards their position to be interned and their individual cases evaluated. If they are eligible for asylum we leave it up to the courts. However If, for example, they are members of the Mexican military infiltrating with A ******* caravan, and I have seen the vids from ranchers on the border of Mexican military running ******* across the border ( unconfirmed but I HAVE seen what looks like Mexican army running ******* into the States) we dont let armed foreign troops tresspass into our nation, now we have the option of flicking some AGM-114s their way and tuning them up proper!
I'm not some "Murica bad" ethnomasochist here either. Am actually right of center on many issues. Our actions down south in the past decades have caused many of our problems. Let's try A different approach.
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Assuming that what you posted is correct, the question is "why wasn't it presented to the voters that way?"
This was the primary platform accomplishment of Trump & the republican party .... "build a wall and make Mexico pay for it".
Trump is guilty of, yet another, "bait & switch" if this is the case. Show 'em an expensive steak, then hand them a cheap burger. Same with the healthcare plan, offer a much better plan at a much lower cost, then jerk it away and hand them "nothing of value".
This has been the MO of this alt-President from the beginning on everything. Amazing that his followers still buy his lies over and over.
I'm waiting for the Mueller report and the House responses ... after that, all anyone can do is show up on election day and "HOPE" their vote is counted. In NC that's not a guarantee anymore, either.
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Randilicous
Couple
How Much Border Wall Does $5 Billion Buy?
The $5B the House has approved for a border wall would be enough for about 215 miles of barrier.
Randilicous
Couple
Another grey area that can be exploited imo. 30 billion to build the solid wall most people are picturing. Something equivalent to what Mexico has on their southern border. We could get away with sections of actual wall, but with A 5 billion dollar budget quite A bit of that barrier would have to be simple fence.
Randilicous
Couple
I can guarantee the court costs would be high as well. As I mentioned above you can expect legal challenges from Native Americans, citizens groups who are opposed to the project, activist judges and environmental groups concerned about, for instance, disrupting ******* migration routes. Court costs could end up being astronomical and easily delay the project for years as the cases work their way through our legal system. Like our wonderful leaders in Washington like to joke. "A billion here A billion there, pretty soon you're looking at some Real Money" ?
Look no further than the stalled pipeline projects under litigation right now to see how the wall, which is 10 times as politically contentious, would go down.
Static defenses like A wall are only as strong as their weakest link. They would still need personnel to patrol and enforce the border. Coyotes, the human smugglers who help these people infiltrate our country, are already using both ultra lights and tunnels to get their clients across. A wall alone wouldn't stop that. 5 billion is only enough to finalize the design and build 215 miles of actual wall. Not cover the 1900 miles of Mexican border. A drone fleet would expose people hopping across in light aircraft, add ground penetrating radar and the tunnels could be found as well. Again A mix of physical barriers and personnel using the latest tech is the way to go I believe. Constant overflights would also have bonuses such as the early spotting of forest fires, monitoring wildlife populations and in some instances detecting seismic activity.
Look no further than the stalled pipeline projects under litigation right now to see how the wall, which is 10 times as politically contentious, would go down.
Static defenses like A wall are only as strong as their weakest link. They would still need personnel to patrol and enforce the border. Coyotes, the human smugglers who help these people infiltrate our country, are already using both ultra lights and tunnels to get their clients across. A wall alone wouldn't stop that. 5 billion is only enough to finalize the design and build 215 miles of actual wall. Not cover the 1900 miles of Mexican border. A drone fleet would expose people hopping across in light aircraft, add ground penetrating radar and the tunnels could be found as well. Again A mix of physical barriers and personnel using the latest tech is the way to go I believe. Constant overflights would also have bonuses such as the early spotting of forest fires, monitoring wildlife populations and in some instances detecting seismic activity.
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That is another major sore spot. The pipeline project crosses over a huge area of aquifers in the US ... fresh water that our farm belt rely on to grow their crops. Already, there have been leaks in the pipelines that have been installed, and we know Republicans care very little for the environment. If we poison our drinking & farming water, we drive up the cost of practically everything in the US. And then we may find we're having to pipe in fresh water from other areas of the country, driving up THEIR costs for fresh water as well.
When you dig into the WHYs of the pipeline and the fence and all the other lame ass projects the Republicans implement, right off the tip of their lips come JOBS, JOBS, JOBS which is, in itself, BS. Its MONEY, MONEY, MONEY as special interest groups go from one Republican to the other crossing their palms with millions of dark money.
Randilicous
Couple
The Republicans have definitely lost their way as far as environmental issues go. Teddy Roosevelt is probably spinning in his grave right now.
There Are however A new crop of up and coming environmental politicians with R beside their names. This should be good news for anyone who cares about the planet.
Hopefully their numbers increase to the point where anthropomorphic climate change and other environmental issues are no longer politicized.
Time for Conservatives to Break the Anti-Environmentalist Mold
They, of all people, should want to protect the planet for the living and unborn.
Randilicous
Couple
That is another major sore spot. The pipeline project crosses over a huge area of aquifers in the US ... fresh water that our farm belt rely on to grow their crops. Already, there have been leaks in the pipelines that have been installed, and we know Republicans care very little for the environment. If we poison our drinking & farming water, we drive up the cost of practically everything in the US. And then we may find we're having to pipe in fresh water from other areas of the country, driving up THEIR costs for fresh water as well.
When you dig into the WHYs of the pipeline and the fence and all the other lame ass projects the Republicans implement, right off the tip of their lips come JOBS, JOBS, JOBS which is, in itself, BS. Its MONEY, MONEY, MONEY as special interest groups go from one Republican to the other crossing their palms with millions of dark money.
Agreed and it's A damn shame. At one point the R's were the leaders in this countries environmental movement. Teddy Roosevelt spent his whole life working to promote the environment and conservation. He established 150 national forests, 51 federal bird reserves, 4 national game preserves and 5 national parks. There does seem to be some pushback in conservative political circles though and it's about damn time. Anyway we've derailed this thread enough.
If you have A penchant for discussing politics and refining your stances on different issues, give this forum A look.
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